A message to those insulted by Jade

topic posted Fri, April 22, 2005 - 6:25 AM by  Dan
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Yes, he's getting repetitive. Belligerant. Borderline ridiculous.

But it's entertaining. And not for entertainment purposes only.

He's making a real point. And I bet he'll stop the moment Manu shows some signs of comprehension. A moment of the spontaneity he feverishly prepares for with rote mahamatra etc.

To Manu: I enjoy what you bring to the table. Please don't be insulted by Jade. Learn from the experience!
posted by:
Dan
offline Dan
Los Angeles
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  • Re: A message to those insulted by Jade

    Fri, April 22, 2005 - 9:06 AM
    dan ur making me rethink my decision to stay on this tribe. y would u say until manu shows some sign of comprehension? it is highly insulting dont u find? did u read that thread? it was ludicrous! i think sam (sadasiva) and nityananda ram (who were both very intelligent contributions to the tribe) had the right idea in leaving.

    i would be ready and willing to learn, with those that have something to teach and share. that was not the case. maybe u would have felt similarly if it was u being constantly insulted. maybe not. maybe ur better than that. i digress. i just ask that u think about what i have written. does it make any sense at allto you?
    • Re: A message to those insulted by Jade

      Fri, April 22, 2005 - 9:32 AM
      It does.

      I addressed his insults and general lack of compassion in another thread.

      At this point I believe you can show much inner empowerment by not "sinking to his level," as it were, or not. Although "sinking to his level" for you isn't saying HAHAHAHAHAA *curse word*

      It's more like sticking behind dogma exclusively and showing little personal style or individual gumption in the face of a real, albeit infantile, challenge.

      The most powerful growth is done alone. I've seen you invoke shastra and positive association, but I haven't seen much personal backbone.

      But I know its there. I have seen some. ;-D

      Like I said Manu, I enjoy your presence here. I believe you have much to contribute.

      But like us all, you have much growing to do also. And as Jade may be trying to say in a rather... um... infantile way:

      Growth's gotta go beyond the words and prescriptions and penetrate the heart. It's no different, albeit in a more coarse package, than the mystic traditions all say.

      Maybe he's inciting you to achieve the spontaneous bhakti yoga you desire but hold yourself from? Can you bring your practice into the "real" world of internet cyber-spiritual snobbery!? ;-D

      Maybe Krsna's will is being served, even in the face of distastefully belligerant mockery ON ALL SIDES.

      Jade may be an undisciplined upstart as I'd guess Sam has pointed out.

      It's obvious he's zany. Possibly insecure and looking to take someone serious, you, down a peg.

      Who knows?

      Are you a stuck initiate, futily going through your bhakti exercises as the world and krsna consciousness spin away, right in front of your nose, but completely out of reach because of your own inflexibility? And does that make you insecure and paralyzed, unable to deal with Jade's comments "in the moment" and with creative compassion, rather than in defensively slavish adherance to dogmatic protocol?

      Who knows?

      And who cares?

      It's all illusion. All we have to go by are illusive online identities created by incidental messaging that, krsna's grace, allows us to stimulate a part of ourselves we wish to cultivate to fruition at our convenience and then some.

      So where does that leave us now?

      All this is impermanent. The exchange, although broaching on an identity war has brought up important points for meditation and growth.

      You can leave or you can stay.

      The real issue here is that you're taking this personally. You think he was insulting YOU. Manu, he doesn't know you. He mostly likely will never know any portion of you. He's attacking an idea for motives unknown. Maybe to loosen up his own discomfort with disciplined advancement? Maybe because he's out of control?

      It doesn't matter.

      What matters is whether you critically examine what comes up for you out of this and engage it to furthur your path. And you can do that, or not. You can stay and engage more, or not.

      Freedom, as well as disciplined practice, is by krsna's mercy.

      I trust all our greatest good will be served by your decision.
      • Re: A message to those insulted by Jade

        Fri, April 22, 2005 - 10:08 AM
        who here actually studies bhakti scriptures? who here is interested in Krishna's conclusions?
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: A message to those insulted by Jade

          Fri, April 22, 2005 - 10:23 AM
          Nityananda, I'm just beginning. It would be wonderful if you would share , (all of the more experienced should really), your guidance with me . If you had to give one an education in such things, where would you begin?
          • Re: A message to those insulted by Jade

            Fri, April 22, 2005 - 11:25 AM
            The lord, Krishna, has defined Bhakti as favorable service to the Lord that is free from selfish desires or mental speculated practices. The nine processes or devotional service are enunciated by Prahlad Maharaj in the Srimad Bhagavatam to be hearing, chanting , and remembering Visnu. Then there is diety worship , praying and more processes. but all begins the hearing and chanting. sravanam kirtanam . If one is too busy speaking and not hearing form tose who have heard, from those who have heard, from thhose who have heard.... from Krishna then our service is not really directed towards pleasing Krishna. To serve KRishna favorably we must find out what Krishna wants. Krishna has described these wants of reciprocation in the Srimad Bhagavatam and Bhagavad Gita. the example is if you give me steak and call it love it is not love for it is not what I want. YOu must want to please me and find out what I like and don't like. such descriptioins are given very vivdly in scripture, sastra. I would begin with htttp://www.bhagavadgitaasitis.com
      • Re: A message to those insulted by Jade

        Fri, April 22, 2005 - 10:28 AM
        thank you for this, i would just like to add something in regards to my personal conviction to bhakti.

        my personal bhakti activities help me feel the love that is present in ALL. and reciprocate ACCORDINGLY, that is the goal of archana and sadhana bhakti. i dont consider myself stuck by any stretch of the imagination. if u met me, i repeat, u would see i am the most unorthodox hare krsna ur likely to meet;) hehe. im proud of that. its who i am. to be spontaneous and cutting edge. i personally feel that this doesnt mean i should reject all forms of litterature and shastra passed down in my tradition. rather it enriches my expereince. possibly even for those who care to share in that as well?

        i am glad u enjoy my presence here. i am here to learn. i have never claimed i have nothing to learn. i just feel that sometimes certain things, words and base profanity are uncalled for, and i stand by this.
        • Re: A message to those insulted by Jade

          Fri, April 22, 2005 - 10:52 AM
          Thank you for your honest response Manu. I appreciate the honesty and continued presence.

          Now, on to the good stuff! ;-D

          Do you see a contradiction in your post?

          "the love that is present in ALL"

          And then later

          "sometimes certain things... are uncalled for"

          Here's the issue.

          All things that ARE ARE called for. (hare hare)

          Right?

          The point of consciousness is the NEXT act. The presence present NOW.

          Jade, and many many others, say fuck this and shit on that... and that's how it is. That's how it was, so that's how it is. Truth transcends time.

          Now follow me here.

          The value and consciousness comes in when a higher presence doesn't JUDGE those "past" actions, but comes so present, that the current state of being isn't INTERESTED in the profanity. More specifically, I'd say the mockery is more appropriate as profanity is well... shit.

          Mockery is a real attack. It's an attack on the existence of an idea.

          And for many orthodox practicioners, that attack is very personal.

          And that is attachment to the practice, not the goal of the practice- attachment to krsna.

          So, while you are not "called" to respond to another vaisnava who is completely losing themselves and engrossed in shastra, possibly obsessively so to an unhealthy extent (I'm not going to get in to the "shastra is ALWAYS moving towards krsna consciousness" debate. Obviously, I'm talking here about one still engaged in ignorance of some aspect of self-realization, and being distracted, zombified or just unpresent.), with light ridicule.

          YOU'RE not called to do that. But Jade apparently is.

          If it wakes someone up to presence, hare krsna.

          The issue that both of you have is a judgement of the other's lack of presence and creativity here.

          That's all.

          ;-D

          Moving on. Hopefully.
          • Re: A message to those insulted by Jade

            Fri, April 22, 2005 - 11:16 AM
            indeed moving on hopefully. just to recap u say that i am not present here or my lack of creativity?

            i would gladly reciprocate provided there is something for me to reciprocate with. u said earlier that u felt that i contributed to this tribe. has that changed?

            and i dont see contradiction in still seeing the love that is present in ALL and simultaneously disagreeing with ones treatment of others.

            i also dont think because i keep certain spiritual practices (and yes am attached to them) that it makes me forget the goal. the two are not mutually exclusive. i dare say, in my humble opinion, that in my case has helped me become attached to the goal. om tat sat.
            • Re: A message to those insulted by Jade

              Fri, April 22, 2005 - 12:35 PM
              so whats the goal again?
              • Re: A message to those insulted by Jade

                Fri, April 22, 2005 - 12:39 PM
                bhakti means love of god.
                • Re: A message to those insulted by Jade

                  Fri, April 22, 2005 - 1:18 PM
                  in loving god do you become one with god?

                  or perhaps a vessel empty of desire and attachments
                  which allows god to fill you?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: A message to those insulted by Jade

                    Fri, April 22, 2005 - 1:31 PM
                    in loving god, i/we (bhakti yogis) believe that you develop a personal relationship with him. and eventually go back to the spiritual world from where we came. and to do so we must be free from anarthas (material attachments like desire etc). we demonstrate this in our world by devotional service to humanity. like a dress rehearsal for the real thing.
                    • Re: A message to those insulted by Jade

                      Fri, April 22, 2005 - 1:40 PM
                      Can this be realized here and now?
                      • Re: A message to those insulted by Jade

                        Fri, April 22, 2005 - 1:41 PM
                        yes thru bhakti yoga. in our day and age a recommended process is mantra meditation and various forms of devotional service.
                        • Re: A message to those insulted by Jade

                          Fri, April 22, 2005 - 2:23 PM
                          I just want to be clear - can the "going back to the spiritual world from which you came" be realized here and now? I mean spiritualy - do you have the experience that you become awakened to this 'true nature' while still in this physical realm?
                          • Re: A message to those insulted by Jade

                            Fri, April 22, 2005 - 2:30 PM
                            most definately, one can become fully Krishna Conscious, or full of Bhakti n a moments time. But this stage is eternal, once achieved one does not fall down again into material attractions. We are all very far from this stage. If we are not free from attractions to go seva or service to the sences and have not arose to the platform of Krishna Seva then we must engage in Vaidhi bhakti or regulated devotional service. This is eloborated on full in the Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu or the "Nectar of Devotion"
                            nectarofdevotion.com/en
                            • Re: A message to those insulted by Jade

                              Fri, April 22, 2005 - 8:26 PM
                              Isn't the Impersonalist Viewpoint to "merge" with God?You can never be one with God,you can only experience moments of fleeting unity,but it will probably be the next chicken/egg issue:)
                              • Unsu...
                                 

                                Re: A message to those insulted by Jade

                                Fri, April 22, 2005 - 8:47 PM
                                "one in desire, but separate forms to increase the love"

                                That's such a beautiful way to look at this life. God pretending to be separate so the yearning to merge increases the Love.

                                (was that the right interpretation?)
                                • Re: A message to those insulted by Jade

                                  Fri, April 22, 2005 - 9:15 PM
                                  advaita dvaita God is simultaneously one and separate from us the jivas, souls. We are not God we are liken to a drop of the ocean water we are qualtitatively one with God but not quantitatively one. Krishna is always Krishna or Supreme and we are always minute or infinitesimal. At no point does one become God. We are trying to be servants (of God,not just philanthropist) not the master. That is the aspiration of the Bhakti yogis
                          • Re: A message to those insulted by Jade

                            Fri, April 22, 2005 - 10:50 PM
                            Srila Prabhupada answers this question nicely here please read below

                            Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 2.72

                            eṣā brāhmī sthitiḥ pārtha

                            naināḿ prāpya vimuhyati

                            sthitvāsyām anta-kāle 'pi

                            brahma-nirvāṇam ṛcchati

                            SYNONYMS

                            eṣā — this; brāhmī — spiritual; sthitiḥ — situation; pārtha — O son of Pṛthā; na — never; enām — this; prāpya — achieving; vimuhyati — one is bewildered; sthitvā — being situated; asyām — in this; anta-kāle — at the end of life; api — also; brahma-nirvāṇam — the spiritual kingdom of God; ṛcchati — one attains.

                            TRANSLATION

                            That is the way of the spiritual and godly life, after attaining which a man is not bewildered. If one is thus situated even at the hour of death, one can enter into the kingdom of God.

                            PURPORT

                            One can attain Kṛṣṇa consciousness or divine life at once, within a second — or one may not attain such a state of life even after millions of births. It is only a matter of understanding and accepting the fact. Khaṭvāńga Mahārāja attained this state of life just a few minutes before his death, by surrendering unto Kṛṣṇa. Nirvāṇa means ending the process of materialistic life. According to Buddhist philosophy, there is only void after the completion of this material life, but Bhagavad-gītā teaches differently. Actual life begins after the completion of this material life. For the gross materialist it is sufficient to know that one has to end this materialistic way of life, but for persons who are spiritually advanced, there is another life after this materialistic life. Before ending this life, if one fortunately becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, he at once attains the stage of brahma-nirvāṇa. There is no difference between the kingdom of God and the devotional service of the Lord. Since both of them are on the absolute plane, to be engaged in the transcendental loving service of the Lord is to have attained the spiritual kingdom. In the material world there are activities of sense gratification, whereas in the spiritual world there are activities of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Attainment of Kṛṣṇa consciousness even during this life is immediate attainment of Brahman, and one who is situated in Kṛṣṇa consciousness has certainly already entered into the kingdom of God.

                            Brahman is just the opposite of matter. Therefore brāhmī sthiti means "not on the platform of material activities." Devotional service of the Lord is accepted in the Bhagavad-gītā as the liberated stage (sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate). Therefore, brāhmī sthiti is liberation from material bondage.

                            Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has summarized this Second Chapter of the Bhagavad-gītā as being the contents for the whole text. In the Bhagavad-gītā, the subject matters are karma-yoga, jñāna-yoga, and bhakti-yoga. In the Second Chapter karma-yoga and jñāna-yoga have been clearly discussed, and a glimpse of bhakti-yoga has also been given, as the contents for the complete text.

                            Thus end the Bhaktivedanta Purports to the Second Chapter of the Śrīmad Bhagavad-gītā in the matter of its Contents.