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Kali-yuga- RIGHT NOW!!
Hare krsna hare krsna krsna krsna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare
RIGHT NOW!!!
Where have you been lulled into sense pleasure over enlightenment?!
Hare krsna hare krsna krsna krsna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare
How do you know anything that you know is true? Where do you just placidly accept your reality as is, and blanket yourself with the IDEA of Krsna consciousness? Isn't the IDEA of it polluted by Kali-yuga?
Hare krsna hare krsna krsna krsna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare
I urge you to follow your stressful thoughts to enlightenment. Let Kali do her work in her age.
Hare krsna hare krsna krsna krsna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare
Look at your judgements of other people! Look at your ideas that bring you stress! Ask your questions! Question question question question!
Hare krsna hare krsna krsna krsna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare
"I am a conditioned soul."
"I am too fat/skinny."
"I am unhealthy/sick/lazy."
"I am too/not serious."
"I don't chant enough."
"Chanting alone will lead me to freedom."
"Study and karma yoga will lead me to freedom."
"Bhakti yoga will lead me to freedom."
"My mind is too free/trapped."
"My mother/father/brother/sister/teacher/friend/student is trapped/bad/unenlightened/flawed/unconscious."
Are any of these familiar? They are VERY old thoughts. This is Kali-yuga. QUESTION your thoughts, or repeat them. Live and face your stresses, or repeat them.
Hare krsna hare krsna krsna krsna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare
"Krsna can't save you from you."
"You can't save you from you."
"Krsna doesn't need."
"Krsna doesn't care."
"Krsna is a lie, a trick and doesn't exist."
This is Kali-yuga. Face your stressful thoughts in order to LIVE LIFE. Live your life! QUESTION THEM!
1) Is it true?
2) Can you absolutely know that it's true?
3) How do you react when you think that thought?
4) Who would you be without that thought?
Look at the opposite of your thought. How is that opposite true? Let the paradox melt into peace.
Hare krsna hare krsna krsna krsna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare
Hare krsna hare krsna krsna krsna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare
RIGHT NOW!!!
Where have you been lulled into sense pleasure over enlightenment?!
Hare krsna hare krsna krsna krsna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare
How do you know anything that you know is true? Where do you just placidly accept your reality as is, and blanket yourself with the IDEA of Krsna consciousness? Isn't the IDEA of it polluted by Kali-yuga?
Hare krsna hare krsna krsna krsna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare
I urge you to follow your stressful thoughts to enlightenment. Let Kali do her work in her age.
Hare krsna hare krsna krsna krsna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare
Look at your judgements of other people! Look at your ideas that bring you stress! Ask your questions! Question question question question!
Hare krsna hare krsna krsna krsna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare
"I am a conditioned soul."
"I am too fat/skinny."
"I am unhealthy/sick/lazy."
"I am too/not serious."
"I don't chant enough."
"Chanting alone will lead me to freedom."
"Study and karma yoga will lead me to freedom."
"Bhakti yoga will lead me to freedom."
"My mind is too free/trapped."
"My mother/father/brother/sister/teacher/friend/student is trapped/bad/unenlightened/flawed/unconscious."
Are any of these familiar? They are VERY old thoughts. This is Kali-yuga. QUESTION your thoughts, or repeat them. Live and face your stresses, or repeat them.
Hare krsna hare krsna krsna krsna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare
"Krsna can't save you from you."
"You can't save you from you."
"Krsna doesn't need."
"Krsna doesn't care."
"Krsna is a lie, a trick and doesn't exist."
This is Kali-yuga. Face your stressful thoughts in order to LIVE LIFE. Live your life! QUESTION THEM!
1) Is it true?
2) Can you absolutely know that it's true?
3) How do you react when you think that thought?
4) Who would you be without that thought?
Look at the opposite of your thought. How is that opposite true? Let the paradox melt into peace.
Hare krsna hare krsna krsna krsna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Thu, May 18, 2006 - 8:11 AMThe heart is the seat of the soul. The mind and senses will follow the heart. When the heart surrenders to the sat guru, the living saintly vaisnava, the senses and the mind automatically follow the inner hearts aspiration. By tasting Reality through a serving apptitude offered up in surrender under the higher guidance of those who are living in higher consciousness we find ourselves awakening into that higher Reality by thier Grace.
Visayan vini vartante
niraharasya dehinah
rasa varjam raso py asya
param drstva nivartata...
" The embodied soul may be restricted from sense gratification, though the taste for sense objects remains. But ceasing such engagements due to experiencing a higher taste, one is fixed in consciousness. Bhagavad-gita 2:54
Its not a mental exercise but the genuine awakening of the sincere hearts aspiration. Srila Rupa Goswami states in the Bhakti rasamrta murti....tatra laulyam api mulyam ekalam. Genuine hankering or greed for spiritual awakenment will lead you out of the labirynth of material delusion. Such intense hankering attracts Krsna towards the devotee as Krsna Himself wishes to taste the love in your heart. Sri krsna karshini ca sa. My Master had a saying: "When everything is done for the center of all beauty, everything is beautifully done". -
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Thu, May 18, 2006 - 9:18 AMThat is one of my favorite verses.....
krsna-bhakti-rasa-bhavita matih
kriyatam yadi kuto 'pi labhyate
tatra laulyam api mulyam ekalam
janma-koti-sukrtair na labhyate
SYNONYMS
krsna-bhakti-rasa-bhavita--absorbed in the mellows of executing devotional service to Krsna; matih--intelligence; kriyatam--let it be purchased; yadi--if; kutah api--somewhere; labhyate--is available; tatra--there; laulyam--greed; api--indeed; mulyam--price; ekalam--only; janma-koti--of millions of births; sukrtaih--by pious activities; na--not; labhyate--is obtained.
TRANSLATION
" 'Pure devotional service in Krsna consciousness cannot be had even by pious activity in hundreds and thousands of lives. It can be attained only by paying one price--that is, intense greed to obtain it. If it is available somewhere, one must purchase it without delay.' "
PURPORT
The previous two verses are included in the Padyavali (13, 14), an anthology compiled by Srila Rupa Gosvami. Verse 69 refers to devotional service in faith, and verse 70 refers to devotional service rendered out of intense greed. The first is devotional service rendered in accordance with the regulative principles, and the second refers to spontaneous loving service of the Lord without extraneous endeavor. Henceforward the basic principle underlying the talks between Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Ramananda Raya will be spontaneous loving service to the Lord. The regulative principles according to the injunctions of the sastras are necessary insofar as one's original dormant Krsna consciousness is not spontaneously awakened. An example of spontaneous action is the flowing of rivers into the ocean. Nothing can stop this flow of water. Similarly, when one's dormant Krsna consciousness is awakened, it spontaneously flows to the lotus feet of Krsna without impediment. Whatever will be spoken henceforth by Ramananda Raya based on spontaneous love will be agreeable to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and the Lord will ask him more and more about this subject.
CC Madhya Lila Chapter 8 verse 70 -
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Thu, May 18, 2006 - 2:42 PMA couple more reasons to Glorify the Holy Names;)
O" King, constant chanting of the holy name of the Lord after the ways of the great authorities is the doubtless and fearless way of success for all, including those who are free from all material desires, those who are desirous of all material enjoyment, and also those who are self-satisfied by dint of transcendental knowledge. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.1.11)
Those who are actually advanced in knowledge are able to appreciate the essential value of this age of Kali. Such enlightened persons worship Kali-yuga because in this fallen age all perfection of life can easily be achieved by the performance of sankirtana. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.5.36)
Living beings who are entangled in the complicated meshes of birth and death can be freed immediately by even unconsciously chanting the holy name of Krishna, which is feared by fear personified. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.1.14)
Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
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Unsu...
Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Sun, May 21, 2006 - 1:57 AMYou certainly have a point there.
But it does well to remember, we often speak to and about our own self. -
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Thu, May 25, 2006 - 6:22 AMAll information must essentially be processed through one's own mind. That's how we are conscious of our reality.
Through this, we realize Brahman, the impersonal reality, is all projected self. Krsna, is projected self.
All is projected self.
But what is the self?
And idea that we have of ourself? Or more?
What is Krsna? An idea we have of Krsna? ... or more?
Perhaps our idea is always incomplete. Unfair. Wrong. Whatever adjective captures your stress.
Then, sitting with my ideal, chanting a holy word... this has been used to escape from the totality of my reality, from my stress. No more. I will honor what I am given, I will honor my stresses, I will engage in inquiry to allow my mind to awaken naturally. Through the inner lense.
And I'll chant when I chant, and I hope for a fresh experience each time. -
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Thu, May 25, 2006 - 9:23 AMThe Gita is revealed truth. Krsna is not a fabrication of our materially conditioned minds. He is an eternal trancendent Reality of infinite love existing beyond physical and mental relativity. Leave your mental wrangling at the door and enter the heart space of self giving in faith. Recite His Holy names in a spirit of service to His devotees (those who love Him) And seeing your sincere effort to Love His devotees He will bless you with His Love. Then a ray from the Higher super-subjective soul Reality will illuminate your soul with understanding from that higher unconditioned Truth. The mind has nothing to do with it. Its not mental self projection, imagination or fantasy. But the science of unity with the Absolute as revealed by the Absolute Reality. Make an honest and proper approach in the line of those great souls who have demonstrated this science by dedicating every atom of their energy. With out self surrender and a willingness to give on our part we will continue to plod in the mud of misconception. Give your heart sincerely and you will experience a revealation by Grace. Suspicion only leads to suspension.
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Thu, May 25, 2006 - 3:16 PM"All information must essentially be processed through one's own mind. That's how we are conscious of our reality.
Through this, we realize Brahman, the impersonal reality, is all projected self. Krsna, is projected self.
All is projected self. "
I'm sorry Dan but I have to take exception to this, at least from a scriptural point of view. This idea does not come from the Vedic scriptures. It sounds more like Rene Descartes.
There is a huge categorical difference between revealed truth and speculative knowledge. That's why devotees accept the version presented in the Vedas, Bhagavad Gita, Srimad Bhagavatam etc. There are 4 faults that a living entity has that prevent him from being able to aquire truth by the ascending process. He has imperfect senses, he makes mistakes, he has the propensity to fall in to illusion (in other words tho think what is not true is true), and he has the propensity to cheat. It is stated in the Brahma Samhita that one can speculate for millions of years and by that process Krsna will never become known to him. I believe that statement. I don't want to waste my time speculating, and I have to present my opinion that the above quote by you is just that, speculation.
You can speculate all you want but most devotees of Krsna will not take it too seriously because they know that Krsna is not available through the speculative process. And if you think I am wrong and wish to present scriptural references which back up the idea you present in the quote above, I'd be happy to exchange with you on that level.
Ys,
Makhanchor das -
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Fri, May 26, 2006 - 6:13 AMBelieving scriptural truth is another form of speculation. Believing any idea of yours is another form of speculation. Believing you have any sense of Krsna, that too is speculation.
I'm looking for a natural awakening. What is the awakening away from my ideas and my mind? I'm looking for the END of speculation, not by superimposing more ideas, but by allowing the ideas I have to erode away into... into whatever you want to call it. Krsna consciousness, Christ consciousness, consciousness, realization...
all names are imperfect, even your holy ones. Unless you want to base your integrity on external experiences, i.e. your perception of scripture.
I'm not saying the scripture is wrong. I don't know. I don't know about this idea of wrong. I don't know about any of my ideas, and I'll go with what I have right now. If that's faith in Krsna, great. If I transgress and that brings me stress, I'll honor it and awaken. Naturally.
I'm letting my meditation on my stresses awaken me naturally. I'm open to your criticism, so please... be honest! -
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Fri, May 26, 2006 - 1:21 PMWe disagree on this point of speculation. You seem to think that everything is speculation. I would hold out one exception, that being the truth that is given in the revelaved scriptures like Bhagavad Gita. Now before you knee jerk a reaction of "that's speculation too" I would humbly ask you to get a copy of Bhagavad Gita As It Is and read it. It's not a particularly easy book for a person with a western mindset to understand, and it uses a lot of terminology that you have to learn what it means like for example "the three modes of material nature", but for all the difficulty it is giving what you are looking for: truth. The kind of truth that doesn't change over time. The kind of truth that stands above all the speculation of the material sphere.
So please check it out before you judge it. Many people like myself have found it to be of a quality unlike anything else in this world.
It describes in detail the soul within the body, the spiritual nature of the soul, karma, time, the three modes of material nature, and how to get free from the influence of the three modes of material nature, and Krsna and what it is that makes Krsna different from the individual soul. If you want to understand about the soul and self realization there is no better book to read than Bhagavad Gita.
I'm not interested in criticising you. You are a fellow truth seeker. I just ask you to use the intelligence you have been given and to discriminate carefully, not just react against. -
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Fri, May 26, 2006 - 6:07 PMAlso, if you read Bhagavad-gita sincerely it will guide you to the realization that self giving is the doorway to revelation.
In the fourth chapter Lord Krsna states:
tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jnanam
jnaninas tattva darshinah
"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master, Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him, the self realized can impart knowledge unto you, because they have seen the truth." 4.34
This is Lord Krsna's instruction as to how we should make a proper and honest approach towards Divinity.
The Upanishads also recomend:
tad vignanartam sa guru evam vighachet samit pani srotriyam brama nishtam
A realized devotee who is brahma-nistam (fixed in the conception of the absolute truth) is indispensible in our approach towards Lord Krsna. But we must come bearing fuel for sacrifice (our ego of mastery) samit pani.
Spiritual life is ALL about relationship (rasa). Lord Krsna tells Arhjuna that He is revealing the teachings of the Gita to him because Arjuna is a devotee and a friend. By sincerely serving those who have a relationship in service mood to Krsna, we also are admited and accepted into loving service and from this relationship, revelation and realization follows. Reading, chanting etc. must be surcharged with a serving temperment...sevon mukhi hi jivadau. Otherwise its like firing blanks. Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur sings: shuddha bhakata charana renu....bhakata seva parama siddhi prema latikara mula..." service to the vaishnavas is the root of the tender creeper of divine love."
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, my param gurudeva, put 99% emphasis on service. Everthing else follows from that. Our sadhana (practice, methodology) IS seva (service to the realized saints, devotees).
The final conclusion of Bhagavad-gita is this:
sarva dharman parityajya
mam ekam saranam vraja
aham tvam sarva papebyo
moksayiyami ma sucah
"Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto me, I shall deliver you from all sinfull reactions-do not fear." 18.66
Surrender. serve. then realize. This is the formula for success. Otherwise we are like honey bees on the outside of the sealed honey jar. We must connect in service to a living realized vaishnava saint Then we have something substantial through our service connection. Until we surrender we will go on speculating for millions of lifetimes.
Saranaghati or surrender is the first pre-requisite. Its what connects us to the powerhouse. We have to plug in with service mood and that means acting on behalf of and being guided by the realized Guru. None of this is mental speculation. Its revealed scientific truth coming in the line of realized saints of the gaudiya vaishnava sampradaya. A living conscious current of revealed truth originating in the teachings of the absolute authorites, Lord Krsna/Lord Chaitanya and thier devotees. Mental speculation comes from our side-the conditioned souls covered by Maya (illusion) guessing about what is real. Revealed truth descends, this is the meaning of Veda. It is decending from a higher plane of consciousness through the inspired saints to us. It is self revealing, therefore we must make a proper approach in devotional service mood. -
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Fri, May 26, 2006 - 7:16 PM<<We disagree on this point of speculation. You seem to think that everything is speculation. I would hold out one exception, that being the truth that is given in the revelaved scriptures like Bhagavad Gita. Now before you knee jerk a reaction of "that's speculation too" I would humbly ask you to get a copy of Bhagavad Gita As It Is and read it. It's not a particularly easy book for a person with a western mindset to understand, and it uses a lot of terminology that you have to learn what it means like for example "the three modes of material nature", but for all the difficulty it is giving what you are looking for: truth. The kind of truth that doesn't change over time. The kind of truth that stands above all the speculation of the material sphere.
So please check it out before you judge it. Many people like myself have found it to be of a quality unlike anything else in this world.
It describes in detail the soul within the body, the spiritual nature of the soul, karma, time, the three modes of material nature, and how to get free from the influence of the three modes of material nature, and Krsna and what it is that makes Krsna different from the individual soul. If you want to understand about the soul and self realization there is no better book to read than Bhagavad Gita.>>
Well, it's as if speculation is what leads you to believe I haven't read Bhagavad-gita As It Is.
Speculation is all we have. And it's uneasy. It's ego crushing. It's uplifting (when you're not holding onto anything)
<<I'm not interested in criticising you. You are a fellow truth seeker. I just ask you to use the intelligence you have been given and to discriminate carefully, not just react against.>>
I AM interested in you criticizing me. If I was in danger, I'd want you to honestly share your compassionately ruthless criticism. Isn't criticizing your act of love? Isn't love more powerful than any fluffy feeling could ever incorporate? And aren't the so-called "negative" judgements, aren't these "prejudices" just ways to distance ourselves from our most powerful forms of love? The most powerful natural forms of love, don't these absolutely thrive on our stresses, our frictions, our most aggressive selves?
And don't we just want... peace? Isn't that what the teachings reaffirm in us? So isn't that peace only ever achievable by directly engaging the stresses as they are? Before the mind is involved? Before the enrenched thought processes take over?
It seems to easy to escape into one's thought about the revelatory moment, the sublime taste of Krsna, for that awareness not to be in the constant drone.
And it IS in the constant drone. As the quotes posted here reiterate, that is ALWAYS a part of it.
So I ask, isn't the allowing surrender into the moment of Krsna consciousness dependant on engaging one's stress... QUESTIONING IT... not as an exercise of mind, but and exercise of the mind-body holistic experience, as a living experience... isn't that engagement of one's life BEYOND one's beliefs, BEYOND one's treasured experiences... isn't that the experience of death and rebirth... and the ultamate- through HONEST EXPERIENCE OF DEATH AND REBIRTH,
ULTIMATE experience of holistic being, fully experienced, polished, mastered... FINished.
to a glossy shine!
Isn't that the rigorous practice of being alive?
Aside from dogma, and inclusive. Aside from maya, and inclusive. Aside from one's beliefs, and inclusive. Aside from stress, and inclusive.
Because all of these categories... dogma, maya, beliefs, stress... they all break down into the integrated whole. Again. To be born, again. Or not.
I don't know.
The Buddhists have it right. So does everyone else. We all have it right. There are no mistakes. Life is perfection, not some flawed, marred piece of transcendental Krsna.
So... I ask you again. What are you holding away from yourself. What's your deepest fear?
What are your stresses? Do you engage them... or do you run away?
Is this not transcendental meditation? Not Vipassana? Not natural? Not artificial?
I just don't know. -
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Fri, May 26, 2006 - 8:08 PMI see that you are interested in integrity. But integrity under what conception? We need to understand who WE really are. Are we this body and mind? Or is our real identity deeper than that? According to Bhagavad Gita our identity is deeper than the mind or temporary senses of this body. It is the soul. That is who we really are, and that is the first instruction by Krsna to Arjuna:
dehino'smin yatha dehe
kaumaram youvanam jara
tatha dehantara praptir
dhiras tatra na muhyati
"As the embodied soul continually passes in this body from childhood to youth to old age, similarly the soul passes in to another body at the time of death. The self realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." (Bhagavad Gita 2.13)
So if you have read Bhagavad Gita you are ignoring Krsna's good direction.
The basic point is that the soul's occupation by nature is service, but only by service to God will the soul find the happiness it is looking for. Many would rather sit here in material consciousness and speculate. But that path will not result in peace.
The peace formula is given in Bhagavad Gita also. Chapter 5 verse 29. Look it up to find out what 3 things we need to know to become peaceful.
Ys,
Makhanchor das -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Sat, May 27, 2006 - 2:17 PM<<So if you have read Bhagavad Gita you are ignoring Krsna's good direction.>>
How?
Are you sure I am just mentally speculating here? How can you be sure?
<<But integrity under what conception?>>
Definately integrity beyond all conception. And that's not true either... I'm also interested in integrity within conception. And I am also not interested in integrity... it all breaks down.
<<We need to understand who WE really are.>>
The desire to "understand" something... isn't that mental speculation? Isn't "understanding" by its very defination, a mental process?
Sometimes I just want to understand who I am NOT, knowing that who I THINK I am may be wrong, always.
<<the soul's occupation by nature is service, but only by service to God will the soul find the happiness it is looking for>>
Yes, and if I am not constantly questioning and GOING BEYOND my concept of God, how can I ever know that I am serving God? -
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Sat, May 27, 2006 - 3:21 PMMy question to you is what are you looking for in our conversation?
Doesn't it ever get old to just react against everything?
I see you as a nondiscrminating iconoclast. (with ADD) You are all over the place. It would be nice to just talk about one topic and carry that discussion through to conclusion.
So to that end I will answer the one question you asked that is actually a question and not just an iconoclastic challenge.
You say: "<<So if you have read Bhagavad Gita you are ignoring Krsna's good direction.>>
How?
Are you sure I am just mentally speculating here? How can you be sure? "
Krsna has given many directions in Bhagavad Gita and I don't see any symptom in you of taking any of them. So you are ignoring His direction. Either that or you haven't read Bhagavad Gita and don't have a clue what the directions are.
The begiinning of Bhagavad Gita is when Arjuna says "I am a disciple and a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct me" Gita 2.7
Until you reach this point (submissive inquiry) you will never understand Bhagavad Gita.
That is the answer to the first question "How?"(you are ignoring Krsna's good direction.
If you disagree then I would challenge you "In what way are you following Krsna's advice in Bhagavad Gita?" I'm willing to admit I am wrong if you can show me how I am wrong. After all I don't know you, I am just going by what you have said so far.
The second question about how I can be sure you are speculating is that you never quote any scriptural reference for anything you say. To curtail unlimited speculation Srila Prabhupada says that when speaking in spiritual circles one should be able to back up every point he makes with scriptural references. There are 2 types of statements, those that can be backed by sastra or scripture and those that are speculation. Here also you can proove me wrong by taking any point you have made and backing it from the Bhagavad Gita or Srimad Bhagavatam etc.
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Sun, May 28, 2006 - 1:42 AM<<My question to you is what are you looking for in our conversation?>>
Honest inquiry. Natural realization. An experience of humility, Truth... Krsna consciousness, Christ consciousness... an experience of stress that will awaken my essence as peace.
<<Doesn't it ever get old to just react against everything?>>
Could you rephrase this question please?
<<I see you as a nondiscrminating iconoclast. (with ADD)>>
Thank you. I see where you are coming from with this. I will do my best to limit the discussion in a way that facilitates your understanding, however, when discussing spiritual matters, by definition, transcendental matters, limiting the parameters can also limit the scope of the inquiry.
<<Until you reach this point (submissive inquiry) you will never understand Bhagavad Gita.>>
I don't see how anything I ask are anything but submissive inquiries. All I really want to do is get to the bottom of my stresses. Get to the reality beneath maya. Is that not submissive inquiry? I want to experience, and be, and realize myself, the way I was designed... naturally... beyond my ideas of Krsna, Brahma, God, existentialism, etc...
Is that not submissive inquiry? What's behind all the categories?
<<you never quote any scriptural reference for anything you say.>>
There are so many wonderful scriptural quotes on this board... even on this thread already! I don't see the need to copy and paste words... thoughts... with which you are already familiar.
However, I did in fact cite them earlier in this thread, I just didn't re-paste them. Check it out. It's true.
You see... these seem to be very mundane details that don't really access the essence of realization. I could go on being a
Prabhupa-dittohead and extol the virtues of refraining from getting lost in eating, sleeping, mating and defending...
but this isn't new. This isn't new to you.
I want to be me. Whatever that means. I want to be natural. I want Krsna's infinite essence to be permeable into my being as I serve his good taste NOW.
See... and nothing in my last line is true either. I don't want to be me- I just want to be. If my aim is to be "me," I could only be who I THINK I am, and who I THINK I am, isn't who I want to be, as I know that is my mind limiting my experience of reality.
I want to go beyond my mind. I don't want to live in mental speculation. I want to be inclusive of the teachings, and beyond.
And when I have stress as I contradict the teachings, I want to awaken to the lesson of that stress naturally.
By questioning it.
so...
"I should quote passages."
"I should seem like a good gaudiya vaisnava."
"I should make it obvious to other devotees that I understand the Gita deeply."
"I should copy Prabhupada as much as possible."
"I am less holy than Prabhupada."
"I am less holy than you."
These are stressful thoughts that I may believe. I can question them one by one and awaken to the essence that they, that my higher mind... that possibly Krsna himself is sharing, if I'm open to receiving.
Who are you without your story of me? How would you treat me differently if you engaged the essence of my conversation here rather than retreating behind a couple questions? -
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Sun, May 28, 2006 - 9:28 AM"I should quote passages."
Yes. If you want your words to accepted in spiritual cicles as anything other than speculation. Krsna advises that we should understand the scriptures in Bhagavad Gita. (16.24) This will help you understand the source of your stresses.
"I should seem like a good gaudiya vaisnava."
Pretense isn't going to achieve anything. If you want to take Krsna's advise you will try to understand what is duty and what is not duty by the version of the revealed scriptures. Knowing such you should act in such a way as to be gradually elevated. (16.24)
"I should make it obvious to other devotees that I understand the Gita deeply."
Again this is not an academic excercise. If you understand it and don't act accordingly that understanding doesn't have much value.
"I should copy Prabhupada as much as possible."
Blind imitation is not of any value. You should understand what he understood (the first point of which is that you are the soul and not the body and that sense gratification devoid of spiritual knowledge is the source of your stresses) and live it to the best of you ability.
"I am less holy than Prabhupada."
"I am less holy than you."
It's not about being holy. It's about acting according to what is real and giving up the illusions that are the source of you stresses. Just like the proverbial horse, I've led you to water. The rest is up to you. A smart horse will just drink as opposed to arguing about the water. -
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Sun, May 28, 2006 - 9:44 PM<<I've led you to water.>>
Are you sure about that?
I've read the Gita many times. I have some experience behind what I'm saying. You haven't really led me anywhere you think you have... but you seem to have this armor that you shroud around yourself... thinking you have led me somewhere.
And there are still many unanswered questions.
All that being said... I fully agree with you. ;-) I agree that "it's not about being holy. It's about acting according to what is real and giving up the illusions that are the source of our stresses."
that really seems absolutely true.
And then it comes back. What is real? Where are you blindly following your mind, innocently engaged in speculation, guesses, assumptions... illusions? Where are you ignoring your stresses, the natural alarm clocks that awaken you when you honor and listen to them. Where are you escaping behind your armor, behind your knowing, behind your ideas?
Please know that these are the questions I ask myself... and I only share them with you because the discourse has gone there, and I really am interested in your honest answers. Not more scripture, teachings from your teacher's teacher, or any other generality.
I see where my ideas of your "armor" prevent me from engaging you more directly, more in your language. I see where your idea that you "led me to water" can bring you peace, perhaps numbed illusory peace... perhaps not. -
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Sun, May 28, 2006 - 10:43 PMWell I'm glad there is something I have said that you can agree with. : )
"And then it comes back. What is real? Where are you blindly following your mind, innocently engaged in speculation, guesses, assumptions... illusions? Where are you ignoring your stresses, the natural alarm clocks that awaken you when you honor and listen to them. Where are you escaping behind your armor, behind your knowing, behind your ideas?"
I think anyone who has practiced this for a while knows where their challenges are. Where they fall short. Your point about the stresses if I understand it correctly I agree with. I have always advocated for devotees to follow their conscience. I see that as Krsna within the heart making one feel uncomfortable about something they are doing. You call this stresses, I call it conscience, but it's Krsna either way, IMO. We ignore this at our own peril. To me it is one of the most underrated endeavors in life to have clear conscience. I have ignored my conscience many times and I have learned that it is never worth going against that little voice. In my business I have learned to surrender to the little voice and it has served me well. Some people might call this aspect of the voice intuition, but I still think it is Krsna. He can tell us whatever it is that we need to know, if we listen. And if we don't listen, He will be quiet. Or maybe it's not that He's quiet, maybe it's just that we are so busy with our own mental activities that that drowns Him out.
I have done a number of things that have taught me differnt lessons about this path. I was a celibate monk for 12 years, travelling and giving everything to Krsna. That taught me the joy of renunciation. One of the greatest things about having nothing is that you have nothing to worry about, materially speaking. That made me realize how little I really need in this world to happy, as far as material possessions are concerned.
I have raised 2 kids to adulthood. That taught me about commitment. Even though it is sometimes thankless, about doing the right thing because I know it is the right thing to do. And about giving up rigidity in my relationship with them. And about how to love unconditionally.
I have been married twice. My current wife of 10 years has taught me about integrity, and pushing past my natural shyness to be out loud about who I am. All of this has been within the context of practicing Bhagavad Gita in my daily life, chanting 16 rounds a day, etc.
I'm glad to hear you have read Bhagavad Gita many times. I hope you continue.
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Mon, May 29, 2006 - 8:03 AM<<Well I'm glad there is something I have said that you can agree with.>>
Is there any stress when I do not agree? Can you question it and wake up to the peaceful reality that this illusion removes you from? Or are you just as glad when we disagree?
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Mon, May 29, 2006 - 10:43 AM"Is there any stress when I do not agree?"
When you disagree with me it doesn't bother me. You are just one of many millions of people on this planet and one whom I don't even know, why would your disagreeing with me bother me? If you tried to tell me I have to do it your way that would bother me.
When you disagreee with the Bhagavad Gita I feel compelled to point that out. There are so many people who try to put their own philisophy in to Krsna's mouth. To say that following speculation is equal to following Krsna's advise is not a sound conclusion, at least according to Bhagavad Gita. As far as discussions are concerned, I would rather discuss Bhagavad Gita, or try to hold up specualtion to see how it compares to Bhagavad Gita. For example, your point about stresses can be backed by the Gita. In the 15th Chapter Krsna says that He is seated in the hearts of all lving creatures, and from Him comes all knowledge, rememberance and forgetfulness. (15.15)
So to put a little finer point on it, if and when I feel that any stress of our disagreement comes from my missing something that can bring me closer to Krsna, that I take very seriously. But you haven't convinced me that everything you say will bring me closer to Krsna. It might just as well be bringing me closer to a speculative void. You have to establish that point first. And you haven't. -
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Mon, May 29, 2006 - 3:21 PM<<It might just as well be bringing me closer to a speculative void. You have to establish that point first. And you haven't.>>
Are you afraid of the void? Do you know it exists? Isn't this thought of 'voidism' as something to avoid just more armor, created by fear, which keeps you from your deepst stresses... possibly keeping you from more Krsna consciousness? -
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Mon, May 29, 2006 - 4:43 PMI'm not afraid of the void. Just not interested in it. I want Krsna bhakti. And Krsna bhakti and a speculative void do not go well together. If that's what you want, knock yourself out, but leave me out of it.
I'm not interested in following you anywhere. I know what I want. And as I said earlier, you haven't convinced me at all that you can help me get it. -
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Mon, May 29, 2006 - 5:06 PMSrimad Bhagavatam 3.15.47
taḿ tvāḿ vidāma bhagavan param ātma-tattvaḿ
sattvena samprati ratiḿ racayantam eṣām
yat te 'nutāpa-viditair dṛḍha-bhakti-yogair
udgranthayo hṛdi vidur munayo virāgāḥ
SYNONYMS
tam — Him; tvām — You; vidāma — we know; bhagavan — O Supreme Personality of Godhead; param — the Supreme; ātma-tattvam — Absolute Truth; sattvena — by Your form of pure goodness; samprati — now; ratim — love of God; racayantam — creating; eṣām — of all of them; yat — which; te — Your; anutāpa — mercy; viditaiḥ — understood; dṛḍha — unflinching; bhakti-yogaiḥ — through devotional service; udgranthayaḥ — without attachment, free from material bondage; hṛdi — in the heart; viduḥ — understood; munayaḥ — great sages; virāgāḥ — not interested in material life.
TRANSLATION
We know that You are the Supreme Absolute Truth, the Personality of Godhead, who manifests His transcendental form in the uncontaminated mode of pure goodness. This transcendental, eternal form of Your personality can be understood only by Your mercy, through unflinching devotional service, by great sages whose hearts have been purified in the devotional way.
PURPORT
The Absolute Truth can be understood in three features — impersonal Brahman, localized Paramātmā, and Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Here it is admitted that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the last word in understanding the Absolute Truth. Even though the four Kumāras were instructed by their great learned father, Brahmā, they could not actually understand the Absolute Truth. They could only understand the Supreme Absolute Truth when they personally saw the Personality of Godhead with their own eyes. In other words, if one sees or understands the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the other two features of the Absolute Truth — namely impersonal Brahman and localized Paramātmā — are also automatically understood. Therefore the Kumāras confirm: "You are the ultimate Absolute Truth." The impersonalist may argue that since the Supreme Personality of Godhead was so nicely decorated, He was therefore not the Absolute Truth. But here it is confirmed that all the variegatedness of the absolute platform is constituted of śuddha-sattva, pure goodness. In the material world, any quality — goodness, passion or ignorance — is contaminated. Even the quality of goodness here in the material world is not free from tinges of passion and ignorance. But in the transcendental world, only pure goodness, without any tinge of passion or ignorance, exists; therefore the form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and His variegated pastimes and paraphernalia are all pure sattva-guṇa. Such variegatedness in pure goodness is exhibited eternally by the Lord for the satisfaction of the devotee. The devotee does not want to see the Supreme Personality of Absolute Truth in voidness or impersonalism. In one sense, absolute transcendental variegatedness is meant only for the devotees, not for others, because this distinct feature of transcendental variegatedness can be understood only by the mercy of the Supreme Lord and not by mental speculation or the ascending process. It is said that one can understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead when one is even slightly favored by Him; otherwise, without His mercy, a man may speculate for thousands of years and not understand what is actually the Absolute Truth. This mercy can be perceived by the devotee when he is completely freed from contamination. It is stated, therefore, that only when all contamination is rooted out and the devotee is completely detached from material attractions can he receive this mercy of the Lord. -
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Mon, May 29, 2006 - 5:16 PMathāpi te deva padāmbuja-dvaya-
prasāda-leśānugṛhīta eva hi
jānāti tattvaḿ bhagavan-mahimno
na cānya eko 'pi ciraḿ vicinvan
SYNONYMS
atha — therefore; api — indeed; te — Your; deva — my Lord; pada-ambuja-dvaya — of the two lotus feet; prasāda — of the mercy; leśa — by only a trace; anugṛhītaḥ — favored; eva — certainly; hi — indeed; jānāti — one knows; tattvam — the truth; bhagavat — of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; mahimnaḥ — of the greatness; na — never; ca — and; anyaḥ — another; ekaḥ — one; api — although; ciram — for a long period; vicinvan — speculating.
TRANSLATION
My Lord, if one is favored by even a slight trace of the mercy of Your lotus feet, he can understand the greatness of Your personality. But those who speculate to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead are unable to know You, even though they continue to study the Vedas for many years. -
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Mon, May 29, 2006 - 5:18 PM10.14.29 Srimad Bhagavatam -
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Mon, May 29, 2006 - 5:39 PM<<I'm not afraid of the void. Just not interested in it.>>
Are you sure a void even exists?
<<I want Krsna bhakti. And Krsna bhakti and a speculative void do not go well together.>>
I just don't understand you here. I know what Krsna bhakti means, traditionally. I know what you may mean when you say "speculative void."
But isn't a "speculative void" just illusion? Maya? It seems that Maya goes quite well with Krsna bhakti. And it doesn't go well at all... it is just an illusion, a shadow, a non-existant imaginative creation in a reality of Krsna bhakti.
So, where are your opinions of this "speculative void" really inhibiting your experience of Krsna bhakti? Where does your mind travel when you imagine this "speculative void?" Do you feel separation? Is the problem that the void is real? And so you have to control your mind to stay away from it? Or is the void an illusion... and it's as silly, and possibly as insane, as believing any other illusions?
<<If that's what you want, knock yourself out, but leave me out of it. >>
Where would you get the impression that I would want anything other than what is real? Your own armor? Your own mind's protectionism?
<<I'm not interested in following you anywhere. I know what I want. And as I said earlier, you haven't convinced me at all that you can help me get it.>>
Are you really challenging want you want to your own satisfaction? Or, are you really allowing Krsna to challenge your illusions to your own satisfaction?
Again, these are questions I ask myself. I'm not interested in you following me anywhere either. I have no idea what is best for you, whether it be following Bhagavad Gita, or transgressing. Maybe your life experience requires a little transgression so that you can find Krsna. In fact, if that's the way it happens, I'd say the perfect universe is working in its perfect, and that's exactly what needs to happen. I don't know what's best for you. I'm just asking you questions.
Are you sure you don't already have what you want? Aren't YOU what you want? How could I ever help you achieve... that which you already are, but may not know it? -
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Mon, May 29, 2006 - 7:49 PM<<I'm not afraid of the void. Just not interested in it.>>
Are you sure a void even exists?
Yes
<<I want Krsna bhakti. And Krsna bhakti and a speculative void do not go well together.>>
I just don't understand you here. I know what Krsna bhakti means, traditionally. I know what you may mean when you say "speculative void."
But isn't a "speculative void" just illusion?
Yes
Maya?
Yes
It seems that Maya goes quite well with Krsna bhakti.
Incorrect
And it doesn't go well at all... it is just an illusion, a shadow, a non-existant imaginative creation in a reality of Krsna bhakti.
Correct
So, where are your opinions of this "speculative void" really inhibiting your experience of Krsna bhakti?
They aren"t
Where does your mind travel when you imagine this "speculative void?"
I don't
Do you feel separation?
Nope
Is the problem that the void is real?
Nope
And so you have to control your mind to stay away from it?
Nope
Or is the void an illusion... and it's as silly, and possibly as insane, as believing any other illusions?
Correct
<<If that's what you want, knock yourself out, but leave me out of it. >>
Where would you get the impression that I would want anything other than what is real?
From what you say
Your own armor?
Nope
Your own mind's protectionism?
Nope
<<I'm not interested in following you anywhere. I know what I want. And as I said earlier, you haven't convinced me at all that you can help me get it.>>
Are you really challenging want you want to your own satisfaction?
Yep
Or, are you really allowing Krsna to challenge your illusions to your own satisfaction?
Yep
Again, these are questions I ask myself. I'm not interested in you following me anywhere either. I have no idea what is best for you, whether it be following Bhagavad Gita, or transgressing. Maybe your life experience requires a little transgression so that you can find Krsna. In fact, if that's the way it happens, I'd say the perfect universe is working in its perfect, and that's exactly what needs to happen. I don't know what's best for you. I'm just asking you questions.
Are you sure you don't already have what you want?
Yep
Aren't YOU what you want?
Nope
How could I ever help you achieve... that which you already are, but may not know it?
This is not a question, it's a statement, and it's incorrect. -
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Mon, May 29, 2006 - 7:55 PMIf you chant Hare Krsna this speculative disease will go away gradually.
Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare
That is the yuga dharma. One who is intelligent will take it up seriously. -
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Mon, May 29, 2006 - 10:12 PMThank you for your loving advice! -
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Tue, May 30, 2006 - 11:08 AM<<One who is intelligent will take it up seriously.>>
Are you sure this is really the best thing for me right now? -
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Tue, May 30, 2006 - 11:09 AMIf so... could you be wrong? Is there anywhere in your heart that is open to the possibility of being wrong about this... for me? Right now?
;-)
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Re: kali-yuga (cross post)
Tue, May 30, 2006 - 11:31 AM"Are you sure this is really the best thing for me right now?"
Yes I believe Sukadeva Gosvami when he says:
etan nirvidyamānānām
icchatām akuto-bhayam
yogināḿ nṛpa nirṇītaḿ
harer nāmānukīrtanam
SYNONYMS
etat — it is; nirvidyamānānām — of those who are completely free from all material desires; icchatām — of those who are desirous of all sorts of material enjoyment; akutaḥ-bhayam — free from all doubts and fear; yoginām — of all who are self-satisfied; nṛpa — O King; nirṇītam — decided truth; hareḥ — of the Lord, Śrī Kṛṣṇa; nāma — holy name; anu — after someone, always; kīrtanam — chanting.
TRANSLATION
O King, constant chanting of the holy name of the Lord after the ways of the great authorities is the doubtless and fearless way of success for all, including those who are free from all material desires, those who are desirous of all material enjoyment, and also those who are self-satisfied by dint of transcendental knowledge.
PURPORT
In the previous verse, the great necessity for attaining attachment to Mukunda has been accredited. There are different types of persons who desire to attain success in different varieties of pursuits. Generally the persons are materialists who desire to enjoy the fullest extent of material gratification. Next to them are the transcendentalists, who have attained perfect knowledge about the nature of material enjoyment and thus are aloof from such an illusory way of life. More or less, they are satisfied in themselves by self-realization. Above them are the devotees of the Lord, who neither aspire to enjoy the material world nor desire to get out of it. They are after the satisfaction of the Lord, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. In other words, the devotees of the Lord do not want anything on their personal account. If the Lord desires, the devotees can accept all sorts of material facilities, and if the Lord does not desire this, the devotees can leave aside all sorts of facilities, even up to the limit of salvation. Nor are they self-satisfied, because they want the satisfaction of the Lord only. In this verse, Śrī Śukadeva Gosvāmī recommends the transcendental chanting of the holy name of the Lord. By offenseless chanting and hearing of the holy name of the Lord, one becomes acquainted with the transcendental form of the Lord, and then with the attributes of the Lord, and then with the transcendental nature of His pastimes, etc. Here it is mentioned that one should constantly chant the holy name of the Lord after hearing it from authorities. This means that hearing from the authorities is the first essential. Hearing of the holy name gradually promotes one to the stage of hearing about His form, about His attributes, His pastimes and so on, and thus the necessity of the chanting of His glories develops successively. This process is recommended not only for the successful execution of devotional service, but also even for those who are materially attached. According to Śrī Śukadeva Gosvāmī, this way of attaining success is an established fact, concluded not only by him, but also by all other previous ācāryas. Therefore, there is no need of further evidence. The process is recommended not only for the progressive students in different departments of ideological success, but also for those who are already successful in their achievement as fruitive workers, as philosophers or as devotees of the Lord.
Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī instructs that chanting of the holy name of the Lord should be loudly done, and it should be performed offenselessly as well, as recommended in the Padma Purāṇa. One can deliver himself from the effects of all sins by surrendering himself unto the Lord. One can deliver himself from all offenses at the feet of the Lord by taking shelter of His holy name. But one cannot protect himself if one commits an offense at the feet of the holy name of the Lord. Such offenses are mentioned in the Padma Purāṇa as being ten in number. The first offense is to vilify the great devotees who have preached about the glories of the Lord. The second offense is to see the holy names of the Lord in terms of worldly distinction. The Lord is the proprietor of all the universes, and therefore He may be known in different places by different names, but that does not in any way qualify the fullness of the Lord. Any nomenclature which is meant for the Supreme Lord is as holy as the others because they are all meant for the Lord. Such holy names are as powerful as the Lord, and there is no bar for anyone in any part of the creation to chant and glorify the Lord by the particular name of the Lord as it is locally understood. They are all auspicious, and one should not distinguish such names of the Lord as material commodities. The third offense is to neglect the orders of the authorized ācāryas or spiritual masters. The fourth offense is to vilify scriptures or Vedic knowledge. The fifth offense is to define the holy name of the Lord in terms of one's mundane calculation. The holy name of the Lord is identical with the Lord Himself, and one should understand the holy name of the Lord to be nondifferent from Him. The sixth offense is to interpret the holy name. The Lord is not imaginary, nor is His holy name. There are persons with a poor fund of knowledge who think the Lord to be an imagination of the worshiper and therefore think His holy name to be imaginary. Such a chanter of the name of the Lord cannot achieve the desired success in the matter of chanting the holy name. The seventh offense is to commit sins intentionally on the strength of the holy name. In the scriptures it is said that one can be liberated from the effects of all sinful actions simply by chanting the holy name of the Lord. One who takes advantage of this transcendental method and continues to commit sins on the expectation of neutralizing the effects of sins by chanting the holy name of the Lord is the greatest offender at the feet of the holy name. Such an offender cannot purify himself by any recommended method of purification. In other words, one may be a sinful man before chanting the holy name of the Lord, but after taking shelter in the holy name of the Lord and becoming immune, one should strictly restrain oneself from committing sinful acts with a hope that his method of chanting the holy name will give him protection. The eighth offense is to consider the holy name of the Lord and His chanting method to be equal to some material auspicious activity. There are various kinds of good works for material benefits, but the holy name and His chanting are not mere auspicious holy services. Undoubtedly the holy name is holy service, but He should never be utilized for such purposes. Since the holy name and the Lord are of one and the same identity, one should not try to bring the holy name into the service of mankind. The idea is that the Supreme Lord is the supreme enjoyer. He is no one's servant or order supplier. Similarly, since the holy name of the Lord is identical with the Lord, one should not try to utilize the holy name for one's personal service.
The ninth offense is to instruct those who are not interested in chanting the holy name of the Lord about the transcendental nature of the holy name, if such instruction is imparted to an unwilling audience, the act is considered to be an offense at the feet of the holy name. The tenth offense is to become uninterested in the holy name of the Lord even after hearing of the transcendental nature of the holy name. The effect of chanting the holy name of the Lord is perceived by the chanter as liberation from the conception of false egoism. False egoism is exhibited by thinking oneself to be the enjoyer of the world and thinking everything in the world to be meant for the enjoyment of one's self only. The whole materialistic world is moving under such false egoism of "I" and "mine," but the factual effect of chanting the holy name is to become free from such misconceptions.
(Srimad Bhagavatam 2.1 11)
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Kali Yuga: How to live as the Lotus
Fri, June 16, 2006 - 1:28 PMOh, the rajastic energy overcomes me sometimes, the urge to be active, the burden of energy around us, the red fire of life that flows drives me into my selfish self, this small girl, until i am overwhelmed. Why do i still do this? Why do i desire still to socialize, go out, make love, talk and talk and talk? Most fulfilling conversations are with Ma or Krishna anyway. Oh, they watch me as i climb into the fast pace of the worldly world, they sustain me as friends and family place their burdens of stress on me, does everybody else feel these burdens so acutely? Its like i feel their pain and suffering, and i'm not able yet to flush it all, to surrendur the negativity to God, i forget to ask sometimes.
I never want to leave God, never in my mind do i want to forget the Bliss, the Truth. I am blessed to feel it in odd moments, mundane moments and worldly ones. I want to speak of Spirit all the time, but only a few people in my world understand, or speak of Him too. This life confuses me, suddenly i have a boyfriend, energy that once went up now goes the regular route, the sexual way, and i know i'm burning karmas but i fear to lose the peace i've gained moment by moment, living disciplined. How to be the lotus, pure from the shit and dirt of this world, nurtured by it even? -
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Re: Kali Yuga: How to live as the Lotus
Tue, June 20, 2006 - 8:44 PMThank you Kadi -
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Re: Kali Yuga: How to live as the Lotus
Tue, June 20, 2006 - 8:44 PMThank you for your honesty and your commitment to living. Now.
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