God didn't create us for the hellfire. We came from God and return to God... Hell was created with wisdom, not cruelty. Don't worry, Suresh, everything is safe safe safe, very adequately protected by the Lord's loving care.

False again Suresh.

Don't you have anything better to do than to spread false conceptions about bhakti yoga?

There is always free will, so there is always a choice for the jiva soul. Just like in this life, many people make wrong choice after wrong choice and end up with bad results, but always have the opportunity to turn their lives around, the same principle applies to the next life.

You really need to get a life Suresh. One of the most pathetic approaches to debate is to put words in your opponent's mouths anf then proceed to defeat that make believe position. Why don't you speak your truth and let the devotees speak for themselves what their belief is?

nothing is eturnal... save for the divine Brahman.

I'm glad you brought this subject up.

"Those who worship [Visnu or others] with false understanding enter dense, unrelenting darkness; to a greater darkness than that go they, who are merely devoted to the correct understanding (but do not care to criticize incorrect understanding)."

This sounds more like fascist propaganda and coercion to me.
Sometimes I have to wonder if these early religious founders actually believed like this or if later zealots haven't been rewriting the texts. Rewriting and interpreting scriptures with personal and political intent is a long standing phenomena.

My personal thought about the idea of eternal damnation. I believe that a being can through their own thoughts, consciousness or will, however you want to say it, can keep themselves in a samsaric cycle for a theoretically indefinite series of cycles. But as I see it there is no 'end', and as the future holds every possibility, anyone can at any time direct their course to end samsaric existence.

------

Wikipedia's entry for fascism.

Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers individual and other societal interests subordinate to the interests of the state. Fascists seek to forge a type of national unity through oppression and coercion, usually based on (but not limited to) ethnic, cultural, or racial attributes. Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: nationalism, statism, militarism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, corporatism, populism, collectivism, and opposition to economic and political liberalism.

Seems strikingly close to many corrupt forms of organized religion throughout the ages...

From what I see this guy is confused, and right now he is trying to test the waters in the vaishanva forum since he is not sure within himself and he wants to find the answer. If given the chance Suresh would either finally come out and would say that "He is god" and "All of us in here is god" but the thing is he's the only one who knows that we are all god. Or he could totally backflip and say that he does not believe in God. The guy needs attention and it's just too bad that what ever good advices that are being posted in here, it won't serve the purpose since he won't listen and he will refuse to understand. The only sound advice for him is actually drop all these false ego and just surrender to a pure vaishnava devotee, even if one quotes all the shastras, if one does not have faith then one will never understand. It's hard enought to see things at one's back, much more the whole spiritual aspect. Give up all pretensions and just surrender to a pure devotee and approach spiritual life in a humble state of mind, there is no other way, no other way.

Oh you don't have to change the name of the forum, you guys could go on to your own device.

**The concept of Eternal Damnation is very popular in Semitic religions, as well as in the Vaishnava schools within Hinduism. **

Totally false.

**Madhva, the founder of the dvaita school of Vaishnavism, stated in no uncertain terms that certain souls will always be 'demonic' in nature, and will subsequently go to eternal hell, which he called Andha Tamas.**

Totally false.

**There are references to this in many vedic texts, particularly Ishavasya Upanishad and Gita.**

Totally false.

**The 9th Shloka in Ishavasya....

andham tamah pravisanti ye'vidyamupasate
tato bhuya iva te tamo ya u vidyayam ratah

Those who worship [Visnu or others] with false understanding enter dense, unrelenting darkness; to a greater darkness than that go they, who are merely devoted to the correct understanding (but do not care to criticize incorrect understanding).**

No reference is made here to eternal hell.

**Bhagvat Gita 16.20

asurim yonim apanna
mudha janmani janmani
mam aprapyaiva kaunteya
tato yanty adhamam gatim

Attaining repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never reach Me. Thereafter, they reach the lowest destination.**

No reference is given here either to eternal hell.

**There are many more references, but you get the picture. **

Not to eternal hell. That is YOUR speculation.

**Belief in eternal damnation is necessary to be a Vaishnava, **

Totally false.

**but I see most modern Vaishnvas denying this,**

That is because it is totally false.

**despite references to eternal hell in scriptures, especially the theistic scriptures they revere.**

No reference to eternal hell. That is your false specualtion. The only eternal station is in the spiritual world.

Suresh

Don't worry too much about peoples anger. I'm glad you brought this topic up. It really is inspiring and a great bundle of seeds for exploration.
I know this reply is a long one but I recommend anyone to read it if they are interested in this topic of Hell, punishment of evil, how people in this world are taught, and so on. I also encourage any kind of feedback.

One thing that comes to mind is, why would anyone wish to entertain the thought of others burning in hell forever?
Critically examining this question could lead to a diverse range of thought or discussion.

It was said, I believe by St. Augustine, one of the more famous authorities of the early lineage coming from Jesus. This is a paraphrase but the idea should be intact and accurate. That "besides enjoying the company of God in heaven one of the greatest enjoyments of those in heaven will be to watch the sinners burning in hell". Now this is pretty extreme but it shows the direction some peoples thought can go.

The threat of pain or suffering is one of the most ancient forms of coercion to 'get' anything at the heavier end of the scale and forms of influence to 'be good' at the lighter end of the scale. Most of us use it on others and on our self in some way or other within our life.

I would say that suffering occurs in beings who's mind has become very dark and clouded. Sometimes we are so arrogant or stubborn or ignorant that until we hit the bottom of the barrel we don't notice what's happening with our self or what's happening around us or we may be so confused about the results of our actions. That, by the time we get deep enough into it we suddenly find our self surrounded by self made confusion and suffering.
I believe it says something like this in the Gita. Krishna explains that for the majority of people it is suffering that will finally compel them to get their life together. I can say for certain that has been too true for me in this life.

Here is a pertinent selection from the Vimalakirti Sutra.
In this part Vimalakirti has sent an emissary to another world far from Earth. This other world is extremely pure and filled with pure beings. There he requests some food remnant, some prasadam, from the Lord of that world to bring back to Earth to share. The followers of the Lord there are surprised to see this emissary and make a request to return with the emissary to visit Earth since they have never heard about such a place.
So here is where I'll start:

------------

Indeed, the entire gathering was satisfied by that food, and the food was not at all depleted. Having eaten that food, there arose in the bodies of those bodhisattvas, disciples, Sakras, Brahmas, Lokapalas, and other living beings, bliss just like the bliss of the bodhisattvas of the universe Sarvasukhamandita. And from all the pores of their skin arose a perfume like that of the trees that grow in the universe Sarvagandhasugandha.

Then, the Licchavi Vimalakirti knowingly addressed those bodhisattvas who had come from the Buddha-field of the Lord Tathágata Sugandhakuta: "Noble sirs, how does the Tathágata Sugandhakuta teach his Dharma?"

They replied, "The Tathágata does not teach the Dharma by means of sound and language. He disciplines the bodhisattvas only by means of perfumes. At the foot of each perfume-tree sits a bodhisattva, and the trees emit perfumes like this one. From the moment they smell that perfume, the bodhisattvas attain the concentration called 'source of all bodhisattva-virtues.' From the moment they attain that concentration, all the bodhisattva-virtues are produced in them."

Those bodhisattvas then asked the Licchavi Vimalakirti, "How does the Buddha Shakyamuni teach the Dharma?"

Vimalakirti replied, "Good sirs, these living beings here are hard to discipline. Therefore, he teaches them with discourses appropriate for the disciplining of the wild and uncivilized. How does he discipline the wild and uncivilized? What discourses are appropriate? Here they are:

"'This is hell. This is the animal world. This is the world of the lord of death. These are the adversities. These are the rebirths with crippled faculties. These are physical misdeeds, and these are the retributions for physical misdeeds. These are verbal misdeeds, and these are the retributions for verbal misdeeds. These are mental misdeeds, and these are the retributions for mental misdeeds. This is killing. This is stealing. This is sexual misconduct. This is lying. This is backbiting. This is harsh speech. This is frivolous speech. This is covetousness. This is malice. This is false view. These are their retributions. This is miserliness, and this is its effect. This is immorality. This is hatred. This is sloth. This is the fruit of sloth. This is false wisdom and this is the fruit of false wisdom. These are the transgressions of the precepts. This is the vow of personal liberation.

This should be done and that should not be done. This is proper and that should be abandoned. This is an obscuration and that is without obscuration. This is sin and that rises above sin. This is the path and that is the wrong path. This is virtue and that is evil. This is blameworthy and that is blameless. This is defiled and that is immaculate. This is mundane and that is transcendental. This is compounded and that is uncompounded. This is passion and that is purification. This is life and that is liberation.'

"Thus, by means of these varied explanations of the Dharma, the Buddha trains the minds of those living beings who are just like wild horses. Just as wild horses or wild elephants will not be tamed unless the goad pierces them to the marrow, so living beings who are wild and hard to civilize are disciplined only by means of discourses about all kinds of miseries."

- Selection from “The Vimalakirti Sutra” chapter 10. Translated by Robert Thurman.

------------

Here I would discern a subtle difference between the way we present our self. In one way it may appear as a threat or coercive. In another way it may appear as providing information and warning about the natural laws of the universe. Such as don’t put your hand in the fire, it will burn you. This is different from, “Do that, be like this or I will burn you or my God will burn you.”

The following teaching is also highly pertinent to this subject of Hell.
For the sake of Vaishnava terminology the word 'self' in the following selection is equated with 'false-ego'
That is, the self which I as a habitually conditioned being think of as who I am, my 'self'.

------------

And Simha said:
"One doubt still lurks in my mind
concerning the doctrine of the Blessed One.
Will the Blessed One consent to clear the cloud away
so that I may understand the Dharma as the Blessed One teaches it?" [14]

The Tathagata having given his consent, Simha continued:
"I am a soldier, O Blessed One,
and am appointed by the king
to enforce his laws and to wage his wars.
Does the Tathagata who teaches kindness without end
and compassion with all sufferers,
permit the punishment of the criminal?
and further, does the Tathagata declare
that it is wrong to go to war for the protection
for our homes, our wives, our children, and our property?
Does the Tathagata teach the doctrine of a complete self-surrender,
so that I should suffer the evil-doer to do what he pleases
and yield submissively to him who threatens to take by violence what is my own?
Does the Tathagata maintain that all strife, including such warfare
as is waged for a righteous cause, should be forbidden?" [15]

The Buddha replied:
"He who deserves punishment must be punished,
and he who is worthy of favour must be favoured.
Yet at the same time he teaches to do no injury
to any living being but to be full of love and kindness.
These injunctions are not contradictory,
for whosoever must be punished for the crimes which he has committed,
suffers his injury not through the ill-will of the judge
but on account of his evil-doing.
His own acts have brought upon him the injury
that the executer of the law inflicts.
When a magistrate punishes, let him not harbour hatred in his breast,
yet a murderer, when put to death,
should consider that this is the fruit of his own act.
As soon as he will understand that the punishment will purify his soul,
he will no longer lament his fate but rejoice at it." [16]

And the Blessed One continued:
"The Tathagata teaches that all warfare in which man tries to slay his brother is lamentable,
but he does not teach that those who go to war in a righteous cause
after having exhausted all means to preserve the peace are blame-worthy.
He must be blamed who is the cause of war. [17]

"The Tathagata teaches a complete surrender of self,
but he does not teach a surrender of anything
to those powers that are evil, be they men or gods or the elements of nature.
Struggle must be, for all life is a struggle of some kind.
But he that struggles should look to it
lest he struggle in the interest of self against truth and righteousness. [18]

"He who struggles in the interest of self,
so that he himself may be great or powerful or rich or famous,
will have no reward, but he who struggles for righteousness and truth,
will have great reward, for even his defeat will be a victory. [19]

"Self is not a fit vessel to receive any great success;
self is small and brittle
and its contents will soon be split for the benefit,
and perhaps also for the curse, of others. [20]

"Truth, however, is large enough
to receive the yearnings and aspirations of all selves
and when the selves break like soap-bubbles,
their contents will be preserved
and in the truth they will lead a life everlasting. [21]

"He who goeth to battle, O Simha,
even though it be in a righteous cause,
must be prepared to be slain by his enemies,
for that is the destiny of warriors;
and should his fate overtake him
he has no reason for complaint. [22]

"But he who is victorious
should remember the instability of earthly things.
His success may be great,
but be it ever so great the wheel of fortune may turn again
and bring him down into the dust. [23]

"However, if he moderates himself
and, extinguishing all hatred in his heart
lifts his down-trodden adversary up and says to him,
'Come now and make peace and let us be brothers,'
he will gain a victory that is not a transient success,
for its fruits will remain forever. [24]

"Great is a successful general, O Simha,
but he who had conquered self is the greater victor. [25]

"The doctrine of the conquest of self, O Simha,
is not taught to destroy the souls of men, but to preserve them.
He who has conquered self is more fit to live,
to be successful, and to gain victories
than he who is the slave of self. [26]

"He whose mind is free from the illusion of self,
will stand and not fall in the battle of life. [27]

"He whose intentions are righteousness and justice,
will meet with no failure,
but be successful in his enterprises
and his success will endure. [28]

"He who harbours in his heart love of truth
will live and not die,
for he has drunk the water of immortality. [29]

"Struggle then, O general, courageously;
and fight thy battles vigorously,
but be a soldier of truth
and the Tathagata will bless thee." [30]

- From “The Gospel of Buddha” by Paul Carus

------------

The main point here I am looking at is this one:

" For whosoever must be punished for the crimes which he has committed,
suffers his injury not through the ill-will of the judge
but on account of his evil-doing.
His own acts have brought upon him the injury
that the executer of the law inflicts "

For my self I could not say I am qualified to carry out the duty of Ksatriya. I would caution anyone who would consider this duty for the qualifications required are beyond even most of ours current conception. I believe Prabhupada said something like everyone in this world right now is a Sudra. So for my self I allow the universe, the Gods and the laws of karma to do the punishing and I keep a close eye on my own potential to vengeance, hatred and punishment.

This is really quite an interesting verse now that I'm looking at it.

** "Those who worship [Visnu or others] with false understanding enter dense, unrelenting darkness; to a greater darkness than that go they, who are merely devoted to the correct understanding (but do not care to criticize incorrect understanding)." **

Here is what I consider an effective way to view and use it.

In the case of Vishnu in this verse I can consider how Vishnu is Bhagavan, Paramatma & Brahman.
If I consider the Brahman aspect of Vishnu in the sense that all material substance is actually the energy of Vishnu.
Then we could say that if I worship my TV or celebrities or money or any number of other things many of us worship then I am worshiping Vishnu with false understanding. And from my own experience it's pretty clear that worshiping TV and so many other worldly appearances causes me to enter into really painful dark worlds. Worshiping the wrong things turns the mind to mush and darkness.

And for the second part I would say that. For those who know better, who have discovered some truth, to use that and to pursue that with selfish personal interest. Has even worse results than those who are merely in darkness and confusion. It's like a person who knows better and still commits the crime. It would be like the difference between a child who shoplifts some candy and an adult who establishes a corporate organization to get rich from the greedy materialistic tendencies of other confused persons. To exploit others with one's intelligence when one can see the situation of greed and tendency to hoard and accumulate, instead of doing something to help the situation one exploits it for self interest.
A similar situation can be seen in many religions. Intelligent people use a religious system to gain fame, wealth, power, pleasure, so many things. Such a person may have achieved some potency or minor siddhi, increased intelligence or charisma through spiritual practice, but instead of following through misuses it for one's own false-ego interest.

It is said in the Bible (paraphrased) "Do not worship any God before me".
I understand this functionally and pertinent to our immediate situations as meaning how we put our attachment to the misuse of the things of this world before the practice of the "Law of God."

This is one of my favorite verses in the Bible, Matthew 7:

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
29 For he taught them as one having authority (one who knows by direct experience), and not as the scribes.

It could also be said that for those who have a strong interest in getting their self into an eternal paradise, their mind is still wrapped up in selfish shallow interest. This mentality is a painful one.

One may be "merely devoted to the correct understanding" for the sake of their own interest in an eternal paradise. So if due to this one has no real interest in helping others after they themselves have found the way out of suffering. Even though they have found the way and practice it, since the service is devoted to the interest of the false-ego. The result is worse suffering than one who is merely in total darkness and confusion.

In this last case one can say that ignorance is a kind of bliss. Well not real bliss of course. But at least one is so numbed and darkened that one may not even know one is in a miserable state. For some they may have realized their ignorance and can no longer experience this 'bliss of ignorance' but still do not know the 'real bliss of the spiritual life' and so they are in a pretty bad in between state. The 'dark night of the soul' it has been called.

I would say that it can be a deceptive irony that one who goes about preaching to others about God and salvation while maintaining a selfish or impure heart, is not of any real benefit to others. I would say such a person is in a more miserable state than even hedonistic revelers. Which is likely why hypocritical religious fanatics are so often ridiculed and disregarded.
These are just my thoughts and observations.

Good verse though. I this context I would say I like it alot. Practical and useful.

This is why we continually go through the cycle of being a good devotee or being a holy person and then fall back into old self indulgent habits.
We give up the pleasures of the material world, but we have not yet experienced the bliss of the spiritual world, due to our clinging to a false-ego and our interest in serving the false-ego. This ego-clinging remains even though on the surface we do the things we are told we are supposed to do to be holy.

This is the state described here:
** greater darkness than that go they, who are merely devoted to the correct understanding **

After enough time in that miserable in-between state most of us return to the more comfortable pleasures of ignorance.

This part is poorly translated or interpreted.
** (but do not care to criticize incorrect understanding) **
It could read something like. 'But are more devoted to their own self interest than to selflessly serving the Lord'
It is said that better than serving the Lord is to serve the servant of the Lord.
All around us are found the fallen servants of the Lord who have forgotten the truth in the midst of the darkness of bad habits.
So we work on our self first in order that we may be of real benefit to others.
Freeing our self from false-ego clinging.

Matthew 7
3. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
4. How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
5. You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Suresh,

One day after Indra had slain a horrible Asura, he said to himself. "I am a great God worthy of great things. I will build myself a mansion like no other in heaven."
So construction began on this grand monument Indra would dedicate to himself in honor of his greatness. When the mansion was done, he said to himself. " I am still worthy of a greater mansion than this."
So he began adding rooms onto the already massive home. He continued this for many years until a sage came along and saw Indra and his mansion.
"My!" The sage exclaimed. "What a tremendous mansion you have made yourself Indra! It is greater than any mansion build by any Indra before you."
Indra was confused by this, so the sage led him to a trail of ants climbing the wall of the mansion.
"See those ants?" The sage said warmly. "Each one was once Indra whose great pride caused him to build a great mansion. That same pride caused him to fall from godhood and each Indra is now an ant."

Nothing manifest is eternal Suresh, nothing manifest last forever not even godhood, not even devilhood. Devils are simply gods consumed by pride, just as Gods are simply mortal souls that ascend to righteousness. Though Ganesh is Ganesh he is not the same soul as the Ganesh that was Ganesh when it was Ganesh. (haha) Ganesh is an ego just as all other things apart from God are egos. (Ganesh is just an example here)
As far as souls being Tamasic, egos carry tamasic, satvic and rajasic tendencies but the soul is completely void of the three gunas ALWAYS, because the soul is itself God. When the soul begins to take on qualities of its own, it begins to develop satvicly, rajasicly, and tamasicly. We as material manifest beings have a terrible tendency to try and personify the ultimate supreme (Brahman) which can not be personified. It is without all qualities and forever void of characteristics, that is why it is eternal.
If you ask me eternal damnation is propagating the notion that we are sinful at all, everything after that is simply the effect of the prior : P
Om Shonti Om

I would like to clarify some things, and I do apologize first of all for the confusion. When I was responding to the tread I was completely thinking that I was in my other yahoo forum which an entirely vaishanva forum, I personally know that this tribe is not exclusive to this particular group. So I hope that my misquotation won't created a stir in this forum, I hope that my posting didn't affect the divinity on some of the posters in here. Again my mistake, but i did found out that there are some in this group are more or less envious when I bought the term vaishnava. Suresh did mention that term a couple of times, being of East Indian descent he probably knows that bhakti yoga whem mention in India normally points of the vaishnavas. There are millions of sects in India, yes there are non vaishnava bhakti practioners but majority of these are vaishnavas, hence Suresh mentioned a lot of times the vasihnava sect in particular. And this was done by him with a jest of arrogance since those against vaishnavas are always pointing their finger that they act out of sentiment and emotion. I see the same arrogance on Austin's postings, most specially his last which ended with "shall I go on"
Please do Austin, I would like you to go on. But then again it's not gonna boil down on what you know, but on how youlive and follow what you believe. Death is the supreme judge and as the term bhakti in itself, Love for God could only be attain thru love and devotion.This is the end point for all of us. A teacher once quoted that "the search for knowledge is a great endavor but to act on knowledge is even a greater endeavor".

Shaiva, Vaishnava, Shakta, Tantric, Yogi, Buddhist, Taoist, Sikh, Zoroastrian, Muslim, Christian, Jew, Kabbalist, Jain, Sufi or otherwise Bhakti; devotion is all devotion. Perhaps this is not the place for this battle to be held?
Om Shonti OM
Om Shonti Shonti OM

>Bhagvat Gita 16.20

>asurim yonim apanna
>mudha janmani janmani
>mam aprapyaiva kaunteya
>tato yanty adhamam gatim

>Attaining repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never reach Me. Thereafter, they reach the lowest >destination.

Shankara-bhashya (commentary of Adi Shnakaracharya):

16.20 Apannah, being born, having acquired; (births) asurim, among the demoniacal; yonim, species; janmani janmani, in births after births; the mudhah, fools, non-discriminating ones; being born in every birth into species in which tamas prevails, and going downwards, aprapya eva, without ever reaching, approaching; mam, Me, who am God; O son of Kunti, yanti, they attain; gatim, conditions; tatah adhamam, lower even than that. Since there is not the least possibility of attaining Me, what is implied by saying, 'without ever reachin Me', is, 'by not attaining the virtuous path enjoined by Me.' This is being stated as a summary of all the demoniacal qualities. The triplet-under which are comprehended all the different demoniacal qualities though they are infinite in number, (and) by the avoidance of which (three) they (all the demaniacal qualities) become rejected, and which is the root of all evils- is being stated:

Ramanuja-bhashya (commentary of Shri Ramanuja):

16.20 'These deluded men,' viz., those entertaining perverse knowledge about Me, attain repeatedly births that tend them to be antagonistic to Me. Never 'attaining Me,' viz., never arriving at the knowledge that Vasudeva, the Lord and the ruler of all, truly exists, they go farther and farther down, from that birth, to the lowest level. Sri Krsna proceeds to explain the root-cause of the ruin to the self of demoniac nature:


What Lord Krishna is saying here is that so long as one doesn't have Brahma-vidya, knowledge of the Lord, and hence does not follow the path to Him, one will continually obtain lower and lower births even below demonic creatures existing in hellish lokas. However, obtaining knowledge of the Supreme will reverse the process.

Aum! Shanti!